Jen ([info]jeninmaine) wrote,
@ 2007-11-16 12:42:00
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Sticky sticking subject
I've been thinking a lot about vaccines lately and I've seen a lot of print on them, it must be because it's flu season again and those "flu clinics" keep sending me postcards encouraging me to go get jabbed.

No, thank you.

The flu sucks. It makes you feel like shit. There's usually a lot of snot involved. But you know what? It doesn't kill you. Yes, yes, I know the flu kills people, but so does slipping in the bathtub and hitting your head on the spigot. I'm not going to stop taking showers either. For the majority of us getting the flu or taking a shower is safe enough. There are always exceptions to the rule but as I am fortunate not to be one of them I don't have to consider that in my decision. Let's just hope I don't lose my footing in the bathtub.

My son will also not be receiving the flu vaccine. I don't know what my husband will choose to do, he's diabetic so his doctor always pushes it every year but it's his decision to make.

I think receiving foreign substances directly into your bloodstream is dangerous. That's the bottom line. One's lifeblood is their, well, their lifeblood, and fucking around with it is asking for trouble in my opinion.

Our son received his scheduled vaccines up until he was a year old and then we stopped getting them. It was around that time that I started reading into vaccine injury and making connections between vaccines and bigger problems. I wish I had done more research sooner, but it is what it is and from what I can tell my son is all right. That doesn't mean I don't feel a lot like we played Russian Roulette with his health, however. I feel lucky as hell every day that he seems okay. I look at him and try to imagine what I would do if one day he just stopped being him, and then if I knew I was responsible for that happening. I can't think on it too long as it makes me want to cry.

So. What to do, what to do? I don't profess to have all the answers, but then again I don't think the medical establishment is telling us everything we need to know, either. I don't trust that hospitals and doctors' offices are swayed by pharmaceutical companies to push their product in return for free equipment and monetary bonuses. I don't like hearing stories about competitions for nurses to push medications on people to win prizes. I don't like knowing that formula company representatives will sneak onto maternity wards to swap out formula samples with those from a competing company. It's all motivated by the almighty dollar, not a person's health. I know it's been said again and again but it still rings true - pharmaceutical companies make money hand over fist when people are sick, NOT when people are well. Therefore it is in their best interest to ensure people are always being treated but never cured. This I firmly believe deep in my bones.

I'm one of "those patients"...the one that will nod politely and ask many questions about a medication a doctor wants to give me or my child, take the prescription in hand, then toss it in the trash once I get home if I don't feel it's warranted. My health and my son's health are both very good. I get the occasional sniffles and other inconvenient "social" illnesses that go around (though less often than most of my cohorts) but they all go away within a day or two on their own. My only "help" for these situations are primarily homeopathic - steam, irrigation, tea, rest, a wholesome diet, the very occasional pain relief only if one is being kept from sleeping. The body is amazing, it has a delicate system of checks and balances in place to deal with illness and it works astonishingly well. Even better, we really don't know how or why it works the way it does.

That's not to say I am not thankful for medical science, because I certainly am. There are times and conditions that the body cannot repair itself, whether it be physical trauma or severe disease (though one could argue - where do these more difficult diseases come from in the first place?) and medical treatment is necessary. This has allowed us to enjoy longer and more productive lives in spite of these things. My son had to be excised from my womb, I am thankful that there was the knowledge and the facility available to ensure our safety. However, in that case the only things used were painkillers, tools, and sutures. Nothing that would cause a lasting change on my body's chemistry if used correctly. I understand how all those things work. In the case of vaccines and antibiotics, however, we're still mostly guessing.

I am a very firm believer in the body's ability to heal itself, and with each healing to make itself stronger. The body learns and changes all the time, so to rob it of its natural ability to fight infection and handle disease only makes it weaker in the long run. I see it in many ways as I do modern conveniences - gasoline allows us to travel astounding distances, giving us access to things and places that we would normally never have. If we were to suddenly not have gasoline any more, things would get very complicated. Ideally, we'd revert to providing for ourselves in the limited distance we were now afforded and do just fine. I feel the same way about medications and treatments. For the majority of people who have the option not to depend on such things, introducing those crutches will only make us dependent on them when maybe we don't have to be.

There are always exceptions to the rule. But I also wonder how many of those exceptions might not exist were the crutches not pushed on all of us so hard in the first place?

I make doctors mad because I won't give my son antibiotics for something that's not severe or is getting better on its own. We had to convince the breathing treatment people that my son wasn't a chronic case after he had one treatment in the doctors' office and they sent us home with that little machine that we never used. He didn't need it, still doesn't, yet everything was in place to sign him right up for regular treatments and a whole program surrounding it. Why is this? Because so many children actually have a problem or because a problem is created by perceiving this as normal?

Oh, I don't know. No one and nothing is perfect. I waffle every day on whether or not stopping my son's vaccinations was a good idea. I worry that deciding not to vaccinate my daughter will end in some disaster, that I'll be setting her up for the metaphorical slipping in the bathtub. Just like with deciding between attempting a VBAC in a hospital or at home, you have to choose between two choices that both pose risks. Vaccinate or not? Both carry risks. You have to decide which set of risks you can best live with. Either one could end in disaster, or not. If there were a cut and dried "right" answer there would be no debates, people would just do what was right and that would be that.

There are things that cling to my brain, however, concerning my personal experiences with vaccines. I think about how my son at two months old received four shots at one time, which would have been five only they were out of one at the time. Four. The kid weighed ten pounds, how much blood volume does one have at ten pounds? At four months he received five shots at once. FIVE. At that point he was 14 pounds. The physical ratio of foreign injectables to blood is pretty significant. I can't help thinking that thank goodness he was really healthy at both those times, that he didn't have some latent cold lurking that hadn't shown any symptoms yet. He got a low-grade fever both times. His body was reacting to foreign substances in the blood. Thank goodness his immune system wasn't already compromised. I can't stop thinking about the amount of fluid in those needles and how friggin tiny he was. How tiny and new and untested. There's something distinctly not right about injecting stuff into a body that small and new. Gut feeling.

And again with the wondering, "What would I have thought if the next day Michael wasn't Michael any more?" Ugh. Can't dwell on that, just thank my lucky stars and move on.

The next step at this point is to do some more research. I've read plenty of things online and it all gives me a "feeling" about what I think is best, but still leaves a lot of questions unanswered (plus, it's the internet ;).

I'm going to get a copy of The Sanctity of Human Blood by Tim O'Shea, the 11th edition is available on his website for a not-insignificant $25 but maybe I can pass it around once we're done reading it. There's a good excerpt from it here that at the very least makes me want to read more.

Robert Sears also just came out with The Vaccine Book, and while I'm not a die-hard Sears zealot, I find his books are informational and good as references. I don't agree with everything he's said and done (such as promoting formula on his website) but I am glad that he's become popular enough to get his views into the mainstream pool of books available on the subject. This one has been widely anticipated and has good reviews, so we'll see.

I've read a lot of good things about Raising a Vaccine Free Child by Wendy Lydall, so I was thinking I would get a copy of this, too, so I could check it out. The excerpts on Amazon are good.

In my browsing around I also found this book, Naturally Healthy Babies and Children by Aviva Jill Romm, and this is just the sort of thing I was looking for because saline sprays and chamomile tea only go so far. It got good ratings by readers and it would be nice to have a reference on-hand that I can pick up for those middle-of-the-night necessities.

I did laugh at some of the reviews, however, saying things like "This book is biased!" Well, gee, they're presenting information from the opinion that vaccines harm children, do you think they might just be non-vax leaning? Hmm. :)

More stuff to add to my bookshelf. It makes me feel a little ashamed that I didn't do this before kidlet was born, that he had to get injected for a year and is now four years old before I really started digging into it. That seems to be the way with lots of experience, though...I can talk to pregnant acquaintances all I want about medical interventions and the role I think they play in resulting in c-section surgery, but if they've never gone through the experience themselves it's still completely uncharted territory for them and they often make the same assumptions that everyone does initially.

I mention that only because an acquaintance just delivered by c-section after being in labor for 20 hours...now, I don't profess knowing what the situation was surrounding her labor, but I have suspicions as to why she "needed" surgery based on the fact that she went to the hospital with the highest c-section rate in the state (and one that is regarded as a doctor-dictated baby factory by those in the natural birthing set). Of course people can tsk in sympathy and say things like, "Well, she is a small person," and "20 hours is a long time" to excuse the fact that she very well possibly may have been routed into surgery from the get-go, but if I were to open my mouth and say, "Perhaps the doctors pressured her into it since she was getting close to 24 hours in labor, that would be a shame if they did" that would not go over quite so well. So I keep my mouth shut. All that matters is a healthy baby, right? I hope you can hear my eyes rolling from where you are.

That reminds me of something I said to Michael the other night about how it bothers me that birthing in "modern" medicine results in the baby receiving all the attention, being whisked off to a table to be weighed and suctioned and poked and prodded while the mother is abandoned on a table or in a birthing bed to try and figure out what the hell just happened. Why isn't birthing seen as a joyous transition for both the mother and the baby together? Why is the father, if attending, deletgated to third-class citizen, just the guy who holds the mother's hand until she ejects the baby and is no longer a priority? It all makes me so, so, so sad. But I'll get into that on another day, that's a whole entry in and of itself.

Edited for "That Polio Thing" (based on a comment I received elsewhere)

Ooo! I KNEW someone would bring up the polio thing. The claim that the polio vaccine "eradicated" the disease is actually not true at all.

Here's an excerpt, I've read multiple sources that all say the same thing:

According to the British Association for the Advancement of Science, childhood diseases decreased 90% between 1850 and 1940, paralleling improved sanitation and hygienic practices, well before mandatory vaccination programs. Infectious disease deaths in the U.S. and England declined steadily by an average of about 80% during this century (measles mortality declined over 97%) prior to vaccinations.

In Great Britain, the polio epidemics peaked in 1950, and had declined 82% by the time the vaccine was introduced there in 1956. Thus, at best, vaccinations can be credited with only a small percentage of the overall decline in disease related deaths this century. Yet even this small portion is questionable, as the rate of decline remained virtually the same after vaccines were introduced.


Source: Vaccination Myths © by Alan Phillips


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[info]sylvanstargazer
2007-11-16 07:03 pm UTC (link)
There are real, solid health benefits of vaccination, particularly at a population level and particularly among the populations that are worst-served by our health care industry.

As background: this is the work I do now, reading the documentation from pharmaceuticals, and independent agencies, and groups with a beef against vaccination and coming up with cohesive models that suggest the actual benefits they offer. Their biggest benefit is not in the developed world (where what they are usually saving is complex, expensive treatments), it's in the developing world where they are the only interventions.

For example, the new HPV vaccine isn't really about keeping the 70% of American women who will contract HPV from getting it, it's about stopping cervical cancer in the parts of the world without pap smears. In the US it's biggest benefit is to protect the women who never get pap smears, who are statistically often poorly educated, poorer and not white. All health care interventions carry the implications of race, class and urban vs. rural society in what diseases they target, for how much money and whether they require regular visits; vaccinations are some of the interventions that can have the lowest bias. More than 80% of cervical cancer deaths in the US are in women who have never had a pap smear. However, since they aren't getting primary care anyway, it isn't certain that coverage will be able to reach that population without something like school-based programs. In the developing world it's private foundations, like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation that pays my salary, that will be setting up the infrastructure to distribute it.

Right now the American Cancer Society is holding off recommendation of the vaccine in part based on our work. The pharmaceutical company wants a catch up program of up to 28 year olds, but the vaccine isn't effective if you've ever been exposed. So the way to protect adults from cancer is to vaccinate girls and boys before they become sexually active, or at about age 10. Just because they are pushing it needlessly, and they are, doesn't mean it doesn't work. It does, and the trick is getting society to take advantage of it despite the pharmaceutical company's greed.

If we could vaccinate 70% of girls at age 10 we'd achieve an 80-90% drop in the disease strains this protects against. If we vaccinated 70% of boys and girls we'd virtually wipe it out. I've spent a lot of time looking at the math; vaccines have been effective.

The best example is not polio, but smallpox. Not eliminated by sanitation, and made worse by the rise of public hospitals where it could spread, it was continuing to cause high mortality at the time inoculation and later vaccination were introduced. Smallpox vaccination carries some serious risks: approximately one in 1 million primary vaccinees and one in 4 million revaccinees will die from adverse vaccine reactions. The reactions can be really gross, even in the usual cases. However, world-wide it has lowered general mortality significantly. When vaccination lapse, as in Glasgow at the end of the 19th century, there were sudden spikes in mortality, particularly among young people. (http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/34/2/477) Also interesting to read is the epidemiological history of an outbreak in Sweden in the 60s: http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00042757.htm

One or two people not vaccinating their children doesn't have a major impact. However, it does mean that if there is, say, a measles outbreak (as there was when I was growing up) it is those children who are at risk. It's not only a matter of pharmaceutical companies wanting to make top dollar; if that's the concern wait ten years and it will come out in a generic form. It really is a matter of playing the statistics. I look at the numbers and think, "yup, this is significantly better than the disease, to the point where guaranteed exposure is better than the odds." And then in addition to protecting myself (since I've only made this decision for my own vaccinations), I'm lowering the burden on our health system, lowering my taxes and protecting strangers through population dynamics.

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[info]all_ephemera
2007-11-16 07:19 pm UTC (link)
Excellent points, all. Even if I was the one who brought up "that Polio thing" elsewhere. Next time I'll do more research.

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[info]jeninmaine
2007-11-16 07:27 pm UTC (link)
But how long does the HPV vaccine last? That's what I want to know. From what I've read, a "minimum of 4.5" years. So once my daughter starts having sex at the age of 5 I need to start worrying about it or get a booster? Giving this vaccine to infants is ridiculous. I'd also be interested to know how many strains of HPV it's supposed to protect against in comparison to the number that actually exists out there in the first place.

The chicken pox vaccine is supposed to protect up to 20 years, but that's not even proven. Getting chicken pox as an adult is much more dangerous than getting it as a child. His doctor at the time said, "Well, if you don't get the vaccine and your son gets sick you'll have to stay home with him for a week." So what? That's part of being a parent! Not convenience at greater risk to him.

Here's what it boils down to, and why I feel the need to do as much research as I can before making any decisions:

My biggest fear is that I'll let someone stick a needle in my child and they'll either end up dead or damaged. Because then it will be my fault, and I would never be able to forgive myself.

I need to know what's in those shots before even starting to consider putting them in their bodies, or even if I should bother in the first place.

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another thread...
(Anonymous)
2007-11-16 07:39 pm UTC (link)
Hee hee, I forgot my login, so I don't get replies (saw your note on another thread), and I probably don't trigger any sort of response.

I like those blogs that let you use your GMail id. Of course mine's my name, but whatever. I wouldn't flame anybody anyway.

-Daria

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[info]sylvanstargazer
2007-11-16 09:35 pm UTC (link)
These sound like the right questions, and a doctor who's read the literature should know them. Really, those are the questions I'd ask before I did anything medically.

"My biggest fear is that I'll let someone stick a needle in my child and they'll either end up dead or damaged. Because then it will be my fault, and I would never be able to forgive myself."

*nod* And I understand that. Even if it does turn out to be the right choice, it is hard, if not impossible, to convince parents that taking that active risk can, statistically, be better than not actively doing anything. It's the same reason people play the lottery; statistics isn't intuitive. Part of the reason people are now so skeptical is that doctors found this out and basically stopped trying. They'd just say "in our medical opinion, your child should have this" and hope the parents listened.

Personally I believe in individual responsibility and autonomy, but I also dislike the idea that someone through ignorance can put other people at risk. This is why I like opt-out schemes. California had this; mandatory vaccination unless you sent the school a letter saying "I don't want to give my kids this vaccine". That way parents get to choose, but if you can't be bothered to make a choice it doesn't come down on your kid's head, or other people's kids' heads.

The original smallpox inoculations killed about 1 in 1000 people they gave it to. The fact that that was still much, much better than 9 in 10 odds of some strains of the disease meant people took it. Part of the problem is that now medical research is moving on to less obvious, less fatal (at least in the developed world) diseases where that trade off is no longer so clear.

I mean, these days people with access to condoms and knowledge about HIV are still having unprotected sex because they believe AIDS isn't fatal anymore. When you're dealing with that level of understanding of infectious diseases the idea of educating the public sufficiently for them to make an informed decision is often left on the wayside. Is it elitist and appropriative and depriving people of their individuality? Yes. It is saying there is one thing that is best for both the individual and society. Do I believe that everyone has the time/motivation/understanding to make an informed decision? No. I've spent two years looking at one vaccine, I'm smart and college educated, and I'm still looking at all the areas of vast uncertainty. But I do know I'm going to get vaccinated, because the math has me convinced.

I'd suggest looking at primary, published sources. You can generally find studies both pre-introduction of a vaccine, clinical trials and post-introduction by people who aren't working for the drug companies, which provide the numbers that I've found missing from popular or anecdotal literature. GoogleScholar is an excellent way to find them, and libraries will often have the journals of any that aren't freely available. Even if you are skeptical of medical science, peer reviewed publications are often examined by people who have strong incentives to find flaws in the work (so they could get the scoop) and the assumptions they make are usually stated (especially in decision science), which is not always true of the more literary approach.

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[info]quaintpassion
2007-11-17 04:00 am UTC (link)
Smallpox was "eliminated" by ISOLATION not vaccination (or sanitation).

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(Anonymous)
2007-11-16 07:35 pm UTC (link)
I agree with Sylvan to a point, and I too was going to bring up smallpox. I don't have kids, but I was a sickly child and still have chronic asthma, so I am pretty trusting of doctors. The facts do show that vaccination has saved countless lives. However, we have to wonder what's gone on with the vaccination process in the past several years that seems to link it to autism, because that is a truly frightening thing.

I think your point about putting so much foreign substance into a tiny person is very important. That is a scary thing, and you are a good mom to notice and worry about it. Doctors don't know everything, and the fact that they have to make certain quotas to get reimbursed by insurance companies does compromise the quality of health care. Clearly bigger isn't better, and it would be nice if something could be done to revamp health care without creating more bureaucracy.

I wholly agree with you about the pharmaceutical industry. I think that allowing them to advertise on TV is among the worst things congress has ever voted in. And that includes prohibition! Salesmen create a market, and if people don't have problems, they won't be buying drugs. Why is healthcare so expensive? Hmm, how many lobbyists are out there? Why is insurance NECESSARY to have good health, when it should be there "just in case"? Augh, the whole system is so riddled with problems it's enough to give you a headache! (And if you get headaches, try Gleemonax! If you haven't seen "Brain Candy" you should, if you like the Kids in the Hall... digression over.)

If I ever have kids, I doubt I'll get them vaccinated for chicken pox. How many people actually die from chicken pox? Since it's the same virus as cold sores, I don't think it should be fiddled with; everybody has it in some form or another, for life. If my hypothetical children don't end up with asthma, they won't really need flu shots - flu shots are for people who are more prone to respiratory diseases, and folks who are more prone to getting sick. Some kids fall into that category, but certainly not all; most elderly people do. There might be other vaccines that fit into this category.

It's like everything else in life - people try to categorize things into black and white, when there are infinite shades of grey. However, I would not want my child to end up paralyzed from polio (like one of my classmates in elementary school, who was on crutches for life), nor would I want them to end up sterile via mumps. (I also have never heard of the common cold causing sterility, but my weird husband puts a bag of ice in a certain spot whenever he runs a fever...)

-Daria






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[info]sylvanstargazer
2007-11-16 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Oh, yeah, and irony:

My senior year in high school for speech and debate I wrote a very convincing piece of oratory about not blindly vaccinating your child. I think that was back when I was more optimistic about people making rational decisions. It was also before I worked in a hospital (which didn't allow pharmaceutical representative and was one of the biggest Free Care providers in the state), before I read the literature and before I decided that even if parts of the industry are out for purely self-interested purposes, the ultimate goal really is health, and there are populations of people not beholden to those interests.

I think that finding a doctor who shares your philosophical view and then being honest with them so they can take their experience and help you make informed decisions is the ultimate goal of medicine. I also think it's sad that that ideal is so far from the view and experience many people have.

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Great post!!
[info]lucifera_shadow
2007-11-17 03:50 am UTC (link)
I think it's not only about researching and making an educated decision, it's about listening to your instincts as a mother and going with your gut as well. Everything in my very being screamed at me not to get Luke his vaccinations. I'm glad I listened.
Pro-vax people think those of us who choose not to vaccinate are being negligent and ignorant when we choose to not vaccinate our children. In fact, it's completely the opposite.

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